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Welcome, Alice. Thank you for joining spaces. And, I look forward to this discussion. And, perhaps we could start by, outlining if you could outline what’s AFD’s platform is, what are the main things you’re aiming for, where does Germany need change, and just to educate people who have never heard of AFD or IFD if you can repeat German. And a lot of people, especially in America, have, never heard of AMD, so perhaps this would be very helpful.

Okay. Thank you very much, Elon, for having me and, to give us this opportunity to to openly speak about, different matters. Let me, just can you hear me? I can. Yes.

Perfect. Perfect. To start with, who we are. The AfD is, the alternative for Germany. It is a relatively new party, founded 11 years ago, during the course of, the the euro, problems.

So, unfortunately, I have to start, when I shed some light on our party with, the quite negative circumstances, in Germany. Our country is a great country with highly motivated people. But our country, has been governed not in a proper way within the last 20, 25 years. We had the Angela Merkel administration for 16 years and then for 16 years and then the so called traffic light coalition that imploded last year, and now we’re heading elections. In my point of view, Angela Merkel, the first green chancellor, she ruined, basically, our country.

She enforced without asking the people, she enforced to open our borders for illegal immigration in 2015. She wrecked and destroyed our, backbone in terms of obnoxious energy policy. For, the foreign, listeners here in this audience, Germany is the only industrial country. The only industrial country that, unplugged the nuclear power plant. So the aim of Angela Merkel, was to to enforce just solar and wind energy.

And you don’t need to be very smart, to encounter that you cannot run a industrial country with just wind and solar because you don’t have any energy and, electricity. You know, when the sun doesn’t shine and when the wind, doesn’t blow. And this is a major problem. Sorry? I mean, I obviously, I’m I’m a big fan of of solar energy, but, clearly, if somebody if if a country is at a very high latitude, then the amount of solar power in the winter is going to be substantially reduced.

Yeah. And therefore, there’s a significant difference in the day and night cycle of energy usage. So a lot of it a lot of power can be done with solar and with large scale grid energy batteries, but it must be supplemented with other forms of power, because there’s not a lot of sunshine in the middle of winter in Germany. So, the solution obviously must be a multifaceted solution, where there is certainly the renewables, but also, that that that does need to be some form of some amount of fossil fuel energy and and and especially nuclear. I think nuclear is very much underrated.

I was I think it was tragic for Germany to shut down the nuclear power plants. In fact, they’re they’re very well designed. Mhmm. And I think that the right move, is in fact to increase the amount of nuclear power substantially in Germany. This would be, this would be great.

Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Mhmm.

Yes. Absolutely. So, that was the reason why I wanted to shed some light on the current situation. So in order to form my opinion what our party stand for because this is exactly what you said. We stand for a energy energy supply diversification.

We cannot run a a industrial country like Germany with a strong still strong manufacturing, base. To tell you the truth, our manufacturing production, it peaked in 2018, and it plummeted since then due to high energy costs. And you cannot run a country like that. So, therefore, we we say, look, we need to be technology open and we need to reinforce again nuclear power plants because nuclear energy supply is, is carbon free. Right?

So therefore, we would also yeah. We would also reduce our carbon footprint, which is, obnoxiously very, very high. And this is the entire irony about it. So, our governments, like the Angela Merkel government and the so called, ridiculous, traffic light coalition, they enforce the a green policy upon our country that doesn’t work. And Yeah.

Yeah. And we would like to go back to technology openness here. Yeah. I think that makes a lot of sense. I mean, my recommendation, and I’ve said this publicly before, is that Germany should not merely reopen the nuclear power plants, but substantially increase the, the power generation.

In the same space, meaning without increasing the size of the nuclear power plant, in any meaningful way, without increasing the amount of land area that it uses, you can dramatically increase the power output of a nuclear power station because the actual core part of the power station is extremely tiny. People don’t quite realize just how small the center core of a nuclear power plant is. Yes. It’s like amazingly tiny. And so you can actually, in the same land area, no increased land area, dramatically increase the amount of nuclear power that, that that any given nuclear power station is producing.

You you do need a a water source for, for that to run the the the steam turbines, but, really far more power output is possible than than people realize. And I think that the sensible solution is, you know, renewables but with a lot of nuclear and then, you know, to supplement where that there has to be some amount of hydropower and power generation to supplement Yes. Where yeah. Just it just needs to be sensible. Yeah.

Absolutely. But, do you know what? So just just, just let me, do just or, like, one more example. Because, like like, like wind turbines, wind energy, in comparison to nuclear power, supply is highly inefficient also, in terms of land use. So for instance, I give one example just to shed some light on it.

If you were to replace 1 nuclear power plant, let’s say, like, one like Emsland nuclear power plant here in Germany with an annual electricity production of 10,000,000,000 kilowatt per hour with modern wind turbines with a production of just 8,000,000 kilowatt per hour per year, you would need 1,250 wind turbines just to just to replace this one power plant. And with a rotor diameter of 70 meters and the minimum distance from large wind farms, you end up around with, like, 100 square kilometers. For example, this corresponds to half of the city, major city of Stuttgart. Right? So, so this this entire thing, and, just to just to, just to stress the fact again, you don’t need to be, very smart just to do your calculations.

But our but our energy policy sorry. The crazy thing the crazy thing is is, like, like, a bunch of these these these energy questions, you you do not need to be like, like a world leading physicist. It it’s very basic math. Like Yes. High school less than high school level math.

I’d say middle school math even. It’s it’s very straightforward, not not complicated. Yes. Absolutely. And then during during the, crisis, like, during the war sorry?

No. Please go ahead. Yeah. So, during the war of Ukraine, so, our our, our gas supply was just destroyed. And that, actually shed some light on our, on our severe dependence on Russian gas.

And do you know what what the government decided in this crisis when the energy prices skyrocketed, after we were cut off of, of of, of cheap energy supply from Russia, they switched off the last nuclear power plant to even more create a, a shortage of energy. So either you must be very stupid, or you just hate your own country. Is it? I I I think it’s mostly the very stupid category. I’ve The very stupid?

Well, it I mean, there’s there’s an old saying that, like, one should never ascribe to malice that which can easily be explained by incompetence. Yes. You’re perfectly right now. So yes. I I I I actually, when I saw that Germany was turning off the power plants after being cut off, from gas supplies, you know, from Russia, I thought this is the craziest this is one of the craziest things I’ve ever seen.

Just just when Germany most needs electricity, Germany is shutting down one of the best sources of electricity, which is nuclear power. Yes. And completely carbon free. Yeah. Crazy crazy.

It’s crazy. Yeah. So so, I I I guess, if if you to summarize the I mean, the the two main things that, AFD is aiming for, in terms of change is, a sensible, energy policy, and a sensible immigration policy. Yes. Exactly.

So But, actually, even more. So we would like so, if I if if I may continue a little bit because, now it’s a it’s a, Elon, it’s a complete new situation for me, that, that I just can have a normal conversation, and I’m not interrupted or negatively framed, how that has been, in the media, the case in the last, 10 years, which is completely ridiculous. So, what we what we also stand for since we are conservative libertarian party. So at least we see ourselves like this, but we are extremely negatively framed as a a so called extremist party by the, mainstream media. So we just say, look.

We need to reduce, bureaucracy. We need to free our our firms, our companies, the individuals of the subconscious, bureaucratic, conditions here. Do you know, like, how long it takes, how many days it takes to get a business permit in Germany? Just guess. Well, as as as as it turns out, I do because we Oh, yeah.

It’s a big plan. So how many days did it take you? Car factory, you know, just, near Berlin. So we had, many, many challenges. I mean, this is to be clear, like, we actually had a lot of support, a lot of local support.

A lot of local support from from from like the the local government, from the national government. And and despite all that support, just the sheer number of rules that your you know, the people in the in the government are required to follow, is completely crazy. And we had to I think it was 25,000 pages was our permit. And it had to be printed on paper. 25,000?

Yes. The 20 I I think This is crazy. Map in the end. 25,000, and then there has to be many, many copies made. So it literally was a truck of paper.

Make because, you know, and we’re like, surely, we can make this electronic, you know. Shouldn’t isn’t that better? No. Not possible. You need to have that on paper in Germany.

And that’s it. No. It has to be paper. I’m like, this is crazy. This is only a few years ago.

It’s not the distant past. I mean, it’s like we’re, you know, we’re well into We’re we’re we’re, you know, a quarter of the way through the 21st century. It’s like, guys, let’s just 25,000 actual printed pages. And then, I believe every page needed to be stamped with a physical stamp. I mean, I’m it’s gonna really tire somebody out to do so.

Yeah. You know, they’re gonna get, some Many, many people with tired arms. Yeah. They’re gonna get a re repetitive stress injury from having to stamp. Stress injuries?

Yeah. Since then into the hospital or something. I mean, that’s that’s Yeah. So, track of paper. Like I’m not trying to blame the sort of individuals who are doing this time because they are just following the rules.

So we have to change the rules and and there needs to be, I think in my view for for, you know, all countries, but especially countries that have endured prosperity for a long time, it is extremely important to have what I call sort of garbage collection of rules, which is to reexamine the the rules and regulations, and and make sure that that that they are clearly a net good. And and if there’s any doubt about them being a net good, we should eliminate them. Because otherwise, we get to this point where everything is illegal. And, so it’s just absolutely crazy. Absolutely.

Absolutely. And it’s not only about bureaucracy. It’s also about taxes. Germany has the highest taxes, of all OECD countries. So, so the normal German employee, he works half of more than half of a year for the state.

You have to imagine that. Like Right. Like, with taxes plus social security. So more than half of the year, you work for this, dysfunctioning state. Because, like, the state, does not provide the vital, the vital provisions for the people here.

So, he doesn’t provide for security. So we have, like like, skyrocketing criminal rights here. Right. He doesn’t care about education. So we have this same insane, volkish, leftist, socialist agenda, in our educational system.

So the young people, they don’t learn anything in school, in university, etcetera. So they just learn about gender studies, and they just yeah. And, no. Really, like like, imagine I was I was under the I was under the impression that Germany had a had a pretty good education system that, that was quite rigorous with, you know, the gymnasium and all that sort of stuff. At least it used to at at one point.

Yes. So, but it sounds like this has, I don’t know, the woke mind virus has infected Germany quite badly. Yeah. Yeah. So you have the the international standard of PISA testing.

Right? So the, PISA survey. So, Germany, like, a couple of years ago, was okay scored. Okay. They scored.

But now so we so we just plummeted because because, the survey showed that young people are not able, to properly do math or speak or write German. And in some, like, in some states here in Germany, you have to imagine, they just abolished the writing grades, in terms, to get, the language grade. Right? So you don’t need to write German properly anymore because our entire educational system has been deteriorating. And that is also, the the reason, for instance, why young people, they vote for, for us now because they wanna have a proper education, and they wanna have back a proper educational system that, that, that, provides the young people with, with, capabilities.

And that is also the reason why I, so my personal opinion is that we have to go back to a merit based system. Right? So we need to go back to a merit based incentive system, and to go away from all this socialist gender things, being in our educational system. The families and the parents, they have the responsibility of their children. And the schools and the university, they have some responsibility, to give good education, and that, and not all this woke socialist nonsensical gender stuff.

Sure. No. Absolutely. I mean, the whole point of going to school is to learn, useful skills that, help you in life, help you be productive, and understand the world. Yes.

And, otherwise, it’s not a school. It’s it’s a it’s just a propaganda institution. True. Yeah. So, okay.

Well, I mean, that makes makes a lot of sense. So we see Yeah. So maybe maybe I can just, go on because I I was, I I was just giving an example of the educational system, where where the state fails because because because our state, the government collected in the last year, a record high of income tax. So, they, they collected, like, around, like, above 1, 1,000,000,000, right, of euros. So it is a record high tax.

But the state, they cannot they cannot handle taxpayers‘ money. So what do they do? So they just, throw throw the money out of the window for, for, for immigration in our socialist, for instance. So since 2015, just to give you some numbers and also the audience to have to have an idea what’s going on here in Germany. So we had a influx, of, of almost 7,000,000 people 7,000,000 people.

But these are the officially counted. So, 7,000,000 people? Wow. Okay. 7,000,000 people of influx since 2015 officially counted.

And then, because the people, they just just another funny numbers. Our state allows people to throw away their passports before they cross our borders that are not protected and controlled. So 57%, almost 60% of the people coming into our country on, through an open border, they throw away their papers. Why do they do that? Because once entered our country, our funny country, with this funny immigration policy, they cannot be deported anymore.

So that’s the reason why. So our state, our government, like, the Angela Merkel government and the last one, they proclaimed a policy that everyone can choose to cross our border to immigrate into our Social Security system and cannot be deported afterwards because they threw away their passports. I mean, like, how how insane is that? Well, it it is very insane, but that’s exactly what’s happened in the US. Yeah.

Yeah. Exactly. I mean, clearly, there’s there’s, you know, there’s a sort of, I don’t know, sort of a far left agenda that’s being pushed, throughout Western civilization. Any place they can go because the exact the exact same thing was done in the U. S.

Where, and now they’re sort of calling people illegal immigrants. They call them undocumented. And the reason undocumented is because they threw away their passport just like you’re talking about. They they in fact, if you on the on the Mexican side of the border in the US, there’s a giant pile of of discarded, passports and driver’s licenses like a huge pile. Because it’s actually worse to come in with a passport than to come in with nothing.

And then, just like in Germany, the the the the democratic government, then gives, massive amounts of money, and support to what they call undocumented. But then but if they’re undocumented, we actually have no idea if they are a murderer, rapist. We have no idea because there are no documents, so we can’t actually tell. And so, as a result, there have been there’s been a massive influx of criminals into the U. S.

Because and frankly, I mean, I’m wondering what’s taking criminals so long to come here. I mean, this is a I mean, America is a target rich environment. It’s it’s, you know, you you could in America, it’s so easy to steal things, in these wealthy neighborhoods. It’s like the only thing that is going to slow down how much you can steal is is if if your back hurts from carrying out all the goods, you know. It’s like because you’re just like a it’s a you’re not a rubber, you’re just a moving company.

So, you know, like it seems like all the world’s criminals just come to America on that basis, because it’s such an it’s much easier to be a career criminal in America than it is in other countries where there’s not that much to steal. So, you know, it’s been a massive increase in crime in in New York. Yeah. May I, may I ask a question on that? So I read I read that for instance, in California, by the way, I’m very sorry what’s happening there.

It’s terrible. It’s really terrible to see. And, yeah. It’s terrible. But, in the case of California that, they just lifted, the the the prosecution of theft because you have so many cases of theft.

Is it true? Yes. The the de facto situation, in California is that, theft is almost never prosecuted. It’s maybe My goodness. 1 or 2 maybe 1% of the time, is is theft prosecuted.

And, and even when it is prosecuted, the the criminals are let out on bail immediately. So basically, theft is legal in California. How would it be? It’s it’s it’s crazy. It’s crazy.

Yeah. Now there was recently a referendum in California to, to make to make the crime to make stealing illegal again. And actually that was very popular and it passed. So, because it was actually literally legal to steal anything under $1,000, which means people could just walk into a store Yeah. At $1,000 at at a time and take out anything they want.

And if this if the storekeeper stopped them, the storekeeper would be arrested. So this is literally like the Joker and Batman. It’s like the the criminals, you know, are in charge and the the honest citizens are arrested. It’s just completely insane. Now, like I said, the the the people in California did vote, overwhelmingly to make theft illegal again.

Yeah. But but but, astonishingly, the governor of California, governor, Newsom, he was against the making theft illegal. And just making an incident? Yeah. Well, no, but what what they’re gonna do is even though it is technically illegal again, they the the sort of far left will refuse to enforce it.

Humbly law. Because because you really need 2 things, for something to work for for laws to work. You need you need both the law and you need enforcement of the law. And if you don’t have if you have if you if so, I mean, this is something that George Soros really figured out. I mean, he’s a he’s sort of a brilliant brilliant guy, but honestly very, you know, anti human in my opinion.

Is that you don’t actually need to change the law. You just need to stop enforcement of the law. And that does the trick. So, so I think there is somewhat of a reawakening in the US, and I think even in California, people are tired of this, and they won’t change. And I think that’s that’s really if you say like what people are wondering like why did, why did Donald Trump win?

And it wasn’t just a small victory. In the US elections this year, you know, President Trump won the electoral college. He also won the popular vote, majority of the people, and the House is Republican and the Senate is Republican. What this says is the American people are demanding change. Let me be very clear.

And my recommendation to for the people in Germany is to do the same. If if you if you are unhappy with the situation, you must vote for change. And that is why I’m really strongly recommending that people vote for, AFD. That’s my that’s my strong recommendation. And I think, this is simply the sensible move.

And I think Alice Beadle is a very reasonable person and hopefully people can tell just from this conversation, like nothing outrageous is being proposed, just common sense. So, in fact, I as I’ve said publicly, I think only AFD can save Germany. And I just want to be very clear about that. Only AFD can save Germany. End of story.

And people really need to get behind AFD, and otherwise, things are gonna get very, very much worse in Germany. Yes. Because because because you rightly said, there’s a difference of making a law and then enforcing it. So now we have the situation in Germany where you have, on the one hand, you have the AFD, and on the other hand, what so called the uni parties. Right?

The uni party consisting of all the others. Because because they stick together, and, no matter what they say, they’re not able to implement, to enforce the promises they’re doing in every election, especially the Angela Merkel party. Do you know that the, that the chancellor candidate so so my so my running mate of, the Chris Democratic Party, that it’s, wrongly labeled, for instance, by the economists as a center right party. So in my opinion, it’s a leftist green party. But anyway, Angela Merkel was the first green chancellor we had here.

So, what he did is, that he by the way, just, talking about interference. So I just look it up here. He called your interests, so your interests in German politics, pushy and presumptuous. And, yeah. What is the name of George Soros?

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And Bill Gates. So that was not a problem.

When Bill Gates, actually tried to sell his mRNA vaccination and not mentioning all the huge, side effects on people’s health, and no one takes responsibility about that, and the entire bluff and scam of wearing a mask. Right? So Yes. It’s unbelievable. And, also, that candidate of the Chris Democrats, like Friedrich Maertz, he warned the world about the consequences of voting for Donald Trump in October last year.

So, so so far for, like, foreign interferences. Right? So it’s unbelievable. It’s really unbelievable. Like, how Donald Trump was treated by German media and German politicians during, his election campaign was unbelievable.

And I mentioned that before in a Bloomberg interview. It created for me, it created physical pain to see that, how he was disparaged, like, and his entire family. So, yeah, so I feel very sorry for these people, just like, yeah, saying negative things. And now Yeah. While we while we talk, 150 bureaucrats of the European Union are watching us, our conversation, to enforce this ridiculous digital services act that is, nothing, nothing else than a censorship on free speech.

But free speech. Right? It’s, Yes. And you said it. Free speech is a precondition of democracy.

If you are not able to form a proper opinion and exchange opinions and ideas and, a democracy should be a competition of the best ideas. Right? And of compromises. Yeah. But Yes, exactly.

Without freedom of speech, people are obviously not able to say what they want to say, and then, they cannot make an informed vote. So, if people are simply fed propaganda and have no access to what’s really going on, then, they can’t make an informed vote, and then you don’t have a real democracy. So that’s why I say, you know, free speech is the bedrock of democracy. There must be free speech in order for people to make an informed vote. So that’s substantial, and and and you can sort of it’s actually quite easy to tell who the bad guys are.

It’s like, who wants to shut down freeze freedom of speech? They are the bad guys. That’s very clear. Yes. And do you know what what, what, what Adolf Hitler did?

The first thing, he switched off, free speech. So, he controls the media. And, and without that, he would have never been successful. Yes. Exactly.

Successful. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Yeah.

No. Exactly. It’s that that was, one of one of the first things he did was was to control the media and imposed extreme censorship. And, really what he was trying to do was shut down any pro Semitic media. Anything pro Semitic or any defense of the Jewish people was shut down.

That’s so that’s that’s so we have to like, you know, very few you know, for those who want censorship, they should I think they should be careful what they what they ask for because, when if you once you institute censorship, it’s only a matter of time before that censorship is turned on you. And eventually, they will censor you. And that’s the that’s the danger. Because people love to censor things they don’t agree with, but they don’t realize that one day that censorship is going to be turned on now. Absolutely.

So, yeah. So, I mean I mean, you mentioned, of course, you know, Hitler and whatnot. Now, there’s a lot of the media, wants to portray AFD as far right as somehow associated with, Nazism or something like that. Perhaps you could address, that concern because, you know, people, when they hear sort of right wing in Germany, they, you know, naturally have a bit of a negative reaction. Yes.

Thank you. Thank you for the question. First of all, I would like to, since I’m a, economist, I would like to, shed some light on the idea, when we talk about Hitler, on the idea of the National Socialists. Back then, during the 3rd Reich, the National Socialists, as the word says, there were socialists. I don’t know if you have considered yeah.

They were nationalized nationalize industries, like crazy. Yes. Absolutely. He was a communist, and he considered himself as a socialist. So what they did, they, they, they, yeah.

They, state funded then the, the, private companies. And then they asked for, for, taxes, huge taxes. And then also, wait a second to ask the word now, for statlichin. Nationalize. Yeah.

Nationalize, the entire industry. Yeah. You said that before. And, and and the biggest success the biggest success after that terrible era in our history was to label Adolf Hitler as right and conservative. He was exactly the opposite.

He wasn’t a conservative. He wasn’t a libertarian. He was a communist, socialist guy. So full stop. No more comment on that.

And we are exactly the opposite. We are libertarian conservative party. And see it. Look at this, during, like now, like during the discussion of this terrible, Hamas attack, on Israel. So only the leftist Palestinians, they criticize, the policies here.

So you have a deeply vested anti Semitism within the leftist movement, and it was always that case. Why? And Adolf Hitler, he also played with that. He played with the envy of people. Jewish people have been highly educated, very cultivated, and they were successful.

There were wealthy people back in Germany then. And then he enforced the envy of the population against these people. And it was a socialist measure taken against them. Look at Stalin. Look at the Soviet Union under Stalin, the very same thing.

So he was nothing else than anti Semitic, socialist. And we are exactly the opposite. We are a libertarian conservative party. We are wrongly framed the entire time, and we would like to free the people of the state. I wanna have independently thinking people, self confident people.

I would like to have a state that is minimized minimized, to his functions, and letting the people having their freedom of speech, freedom of wealth also, like generating wealth, with these obnoxiously high taxes. The peep the state erodes the backbone of wealth. Right? So the people are not able to accumulate wealth that make them independent from the state. So I would like to have independently thinking, well educated people who have the freedom to form their own opinion.

I wanna have strong leaders in Germany. I don’t wanna have stupid weak leaders as we had, in the last couple of years because these people cannot, think straightly. And they’re a big danger. Look at the war in Ukraine now. They’re a big danger of our to our national security and to, actually, to the entire European security.

This is also my hope, in Donald Trump and in you, in your administration, that you end that terrible war, this worthless worthless dying of young people every day, like, as fast as you can. Because the Europeans, they cannot. They actually given up on everything, like, on a good military, on a good, negotiation power. They completely depend, on the US, in the sense of, oh, the USA need to do the entire job. We don’t need to do anything.

We just escalate the entire conflict against Russia. It’s very dangerous what’s going on here. And only, you can you can you can basically stop it. Yeah. I I mean, I think, president Trump is is gonna, you know, is gonna solve that that conflict, I think, very quickly.

As you point out, it’s it’s now been in somewhat of a stalemate for a few years, and all that’s happened over the past few years is hundreds of thousands of people dying, but but for for for no gains. And the longer this conflict goes on, the more Ukraine weakens relative to Russia. I mean, Ukraine is a much smaller country. It simply cannot afford the losses relative to Russia. Russia has it just you know, it’s this is the longer the strikes on, the worse it is for Ukraine.

And then you’ve got all these, you know, men dying for nothing. Why? So, I hope this can be this this terrible conflict can be resolved, quickly, and I think it will be under president Trump. Yeah. It will be great, actually.

Because this is our note, really, like, that the people here, like like, many people are anxious. And they’re anxious for a very good reason, I think. Because this conflict, conflict has a potential to escalate big time, towards a nuclear exchange. And here, the European governments, they have no measure. They have no strategy.

They have no red line, no story line, of their foreign and security policy towards Russia, towards Ukraine. They have no strategy to end that, and they don’t have the military power. Right? So they understand the budget to NATO. Well, for actually, for decades.

Like, for Yeah. For a very long time. Like, the average, for instance, of Germany, because, the share of GDP is supposed to be 2%. So Germany, on average, I think, was just, like, slightly above 1%. So Germany didn’t contribute.

But Germany is also not prudent, of the defendants of our own country. So this is the second thing. So, we are we are we are completely dependent on the US. But I think, and I’ve listened to this very interesting speech of JD Vance. He said he doesn’t want to he doesn’t want to have client states.

Right? Right. Yeah. So he wants to have independent states who who that also form their own independent opinion on things. Right?

So you you you, for instance, in your companies, you don’t wanna be surrounded by yes people and by mediocre people. Right? So me neither. So I try to acquire Absolutely. Yeah.

So I try to, also, I try to to to, to have, the best people in my team. And these best people, they have the task to criticize me every day. And I don’t wanna have yes sayers. Right? Because you cannot learn, so you have no mistake correction.

Sorry. Just say yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Yes. Yes, people. Now, but but it’s so but it’s so important to No. No. No.

No. Yeah. Yes. So but but yeah. No.

Absolutely. I mean, for, say, my companies like SpaceX and Tesla, if, you know, if if if we are constantly looking for critical feedback, because if we make a mistake, then the rockets blow up and the cars don’t work. So, you know, physics is is very unforgiving. You know, there’s, you know, I say like, really, physics is the law, and and and everything else is a recommendation because I’ve seen people break every kind of law, but I haven’t seen them break physics. And so if you don’t get the design of the rocket and the opposite operation of the rocket exactly right, and if even one thing is wrong, the rocket explodes.

So, you know, that’s why I’m a strong believer in seeking critical feedback, and in fact, I think critical feedback should be viewed as a gift. Yes. Absolutely. Yes. Yes.

So No. No. No. But, but, just, just, just to continue on the topic. So, if you don’t have that feedback loop, so, your your rocket may explode.

Right? But here, in this critical phase of the state of the war in, in the, Ukraine, many people may die due to the stupid policies that have been made. Many people have died. Yeah. Indeed.

Yeah. So, well, I mean, let’s try to touch on some some, maybe potential what people may view as hot button, issues. Like Sure. What are your views on Israel? Oh, very complicated.

The more no. No. No. Really. Like, the more the more I read about the Middle East and the situation in Israel, the more complicated it gets.

And, to be honest, I wanted to ask you, about a potential solution. Because to be honest, like, in my humble opinion, I don’t see a a a solution. So maybe maybe, Israel, have to find some, alliances with the Sunni states, maybe, if possible. And, yeah, to be honest, from my point of view, like, from my perspective, it’s a very complicated situation. And I don’t you know, I’m not this person.

I’m not a politician. If you ask a question that I do this blah blah blah. I really say what I think to to do honest, politics. And to be honest, I don’t know. Very like, to be very frank, I don’t know how to solve the conflict at this point in time.

And I hope maybe you have an answer on that. Sorry for for for being dissatisfied, but it’s so complicated. And, I wanna give prudent answer. And in case of Israel, I don’t know how to resolve this conflict, to be honest. Well well, I guess maybe another way to say it is, do you unequivocally support the existence of the state of Israel?

Yes. Of course. Okay. That’s what people wanna know. Yeah.

So And and, Anika, I’m asking questions that maybe seem seem very obvious, but, No. No. Oh, yeah. Oh, yes. No.

No. I no. I see it was this question. No. Absolutely.

Yeah. So, so we need to protect the existence of Israel. And we need to protect not only the existence of the state of Israel. I also think that, Benjamin Netanyahu have made many mistakes in the past, to be honest. But we also need, to take our responsibility as a German nation state to protect Jewish life, Jewish people in our country, who are exposed right now to, to to, Muslim crime.

Right? So they are not safe here anymore. So, you I don’t know if you if you, saw, some videos here, of the streets of Berlin. I’m right now in my office in Berlin. But, like, with all these demonstrations of the Palestinians here, well, a Jew could not walk, through the street anymore.

Right? And we have have a huge potential of, anti Semitic crime against the Jewish people. And to be very frank to be very frank here, the AfD is the only protector, and I’m saying that, like, very frankly, the Alternative fur Deutschland, the AFT, is the only can only be the only protector of the Jewish people within here in Germany because the Uni Party, all others parties, they did exactly the opposite. They let, like, millions of people in. They let, do, let them do crimes on our streets.

Like, the crime rate are skyrocketing. And, so the Jewish people, they leave our country. When I when I talk to my Jewish friends who live in Germany and in Switzerland and in France and in Austria, they were very afraid, after the Hamas attack on the 7th October because, they were they were they were, afraid that they, would likely to be attacked by, by Palestinians, by Hamas supporters, or by the Antifa, or by the leftist terrorists. I don’t know. But they were very afraid, very sensitive on going on the streets.

And, we we step up for these people even though the opposite in the mainstream media. The opposite is claimed. But Yes. This is this is not true. It’s just a it’s just a lie about our party.

Yes. I think that’s that’s what I wanted to just make it clear that, that the the AFD is being massively misrepresented, especially in the in the Western media. So, yeah, and, you know, and, no, obviously I very much support the State of Israel, but I also believe that we want to be mindful and have empathy for, you know, civilians, who are who are who are dying as well. The, you know, when when I’ve had conversations, with the Prime Minister Netanyahu and, I I think super largely agreed. I mean, there’s so there’s there’s really there’s 3 steps which is like you you’re there’s there’s no choice but to, eliminate those who wish to eliminate the state of Israel, you know, of mosques essentially.

But then, and and then the second step is to to fix the education so that, you know, people Palestinians are not trained from when they are children to to hate and want the death of Israel. So you’ve got to fix the education system. And and then the third thing, which is also very important, is to make, the Palestinian areas prosperous. This third step is very important, and this may this is maybe the hardest step, which is, but you have to have that 3rd step. You have to bring prosperity.

You have to help rebuild and you have to bring prosperity. And I’ve had this conversation with many people, in Israel. I said that third step is essential. And they’ve asked me, Well, when has this worked? And I’m like, Well, I’ll give you a very big example.

You know, after World War I, the Treaty of Versailles was extremely unfair to Germany, and it created a massive amount of resentment. And the Treaty of Versailles laid the foundation with its extreme reparations, for laid the foundation for World War II. Without the Treaty of Versailles, Hitler would not have succeeded. Yes. True.

And yes. And and so and then but if you look at so so then the lesson was learned. So then after World War 2, when Germany and Japan were defeated, the US actually helped rebuild, Japan and Germany, providing financial support to rebuild Japan and Germany, and now Japan and Germany are allies. And and this is a very important and fundamental lesson of history. Yes.

You’re absolutely right. When, after the, the Hamas attack, I, I just opened Google Maps to have a look. Okay. What is the geographic situation there? And when you see the Gaza Strip, right, it’s a Gaza Strip, which is just locked, locked in, with no resources and not even, water supplies.

So that can be cut off a water supply and, and other supplies just like just just like instantaneously. And, this construction, also, like like, just having a look, like, from, from a geographic perspective, you don’t need to be very smart that this is this is not going to work out. And, to make this area wealthy with, with, specific measure being taken, taken, it’s a very vital, first step. True. Yeah.

I think I think it’s essential. And it requires overriding the natural human instinct for reciprocity, which is that, you know, to basically an eye for an eye. You know, but the problem with an eye for an eye is that if you keep doing that, an eye for an eye, as the saying goes, an eye for an eye makes everyone blind. That’s why and I think there’s great wisdom to forgiveness. Yeah.

You know, you need both strength and forgiveness, but, this this is the only way to stop the the endless cycle of violence. It’s a very nice, nice, sentence. Like, the eye for an eye makes makes everyone blind. Yeah. Exactly.

So, yes. So hopefully, that that that can be the future. That’s the best future I can think of. I think any there’s not some other future that’s that that works. Yeah.

So, So how about, may I ask you, another question? Because, we just, jump topics. What is your point of view? So, so, we stopped, and that your administration will end, the war in Ukraine very swiftly. But, what is what is your perspective on the instruments and measures that could be taken?

So would you like to talk about it? Can you talk about it a little bit? So what we could expect? Yeah. Well, this to be clear, I mean, this this is up to president Trump, you know, the, he is the the matter in chief, and, so it’s really, you know, you know, after him.

So, I don’t want to speak for him. So, but I but I you know, I just I do think that there’s there is a path here to a resolution, and, did require strong leadership, in the United States, in order to get this done. Yeah. So, yeah. But, I’m confident that it can be done.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And I do think it’s possible to have peace in the Middle East as well. These are these are possible, so and I think that would be a a a great future for the world.

Yeah. So, yeah. No. Great. So it’s absolutely fair.

So so very, very, fine with me. Yes. Well, let’s see. Are there any other topics we should discuss or if you have any questions for me or anything Yes. Yes.

Yes. People might wanna know about? Because because, because I want to ask and many people are interested in that. So why do you believe, that, flying to Mars and populating Mars is your top, priority, topic, SpaceX? And, when do you think, when will you be ready to have a human expedition to to Mars?

If you if you allow, if I may ask this question, because everyone is interested. So these are great projects. Right? Yeah. Well, I mean, I think at a very high level, I think sort of like what set of actions are going to lead to the long term prosperity of civilization, you know, the so a growth in the scale and scope of consciousness.

You know, the to the best of our knowledge, we are the only place with life or certainly the only place with life that is intelligent in some form. There are a lot of people think, oh, there’s there must be aliens, but I’ve not seen any evidence of aliens. And, if the archaeological records are correct, you know, the earth is 1 half 1000000000 years old, but civilization as measured from the first writing is only about 5000 years old, which is about 1 millionth of Earth’s existence. So we’re all of human civilization is a tiny flash in the pan, so far. And so we have to say, well, what steps can we take to ensure the long term survival multi planet species, the probable lifespan of consciousness is dramatically greater than if we are a single planet species.

This is not to say that I think that there’s that Earth is about to die or anything like that, but there is some risk. You know, if there is if there is a global thermonuclear war with some extreme natural events like a giant, you know, meteor that hits the earth, that causes a mass extinction event. I mean, if we look at the fossil record, there are at least 5 extreme mass extinction events that would have basically extinction events that would have destroyed all of humanity completely. There’s 5 of them at least. And so, I think if we we should take this opportunity today because for the first time in the 4 and a half 1000000000 year history of Earth, it is possible to extend life and to extend consciousness beyond Earth.

And that window of opportunity may be open for a short time or it may be open for a long time. But just in case, it is open for a short time, we must take advantage of this window, and as quickly as possible become a multi planet species, and ensure the long term survival of civilization. So what is your time frame for a for an expedition, like for the first first human expedition? Well, yes, to be clear, that what matters is not so much the sort of flags and footprints, but the establishment of a self sustaining city on Mars, where the critical threshold is where the city can grow independent of Earth. Meaning, if the resupply ships from Earth stop coming for any reason, that the Mars colony does not die out.

That’s if we are able to reach that point, then we have passed one of the very important and fundamental Fermi great filters. You know, there’s this idea of like, why don’t we see evidence of intelligence life? Well, that this idea that there are these various great cultures that these civilizations never pass. And one of those great cultures is never going beyond your home planet. So, if we can pass the Fermi great culture of being a single planet species, and to be clear, if we are a single planet species, it is just a matter of time before we are annihilated.

One can argue about how long it will take, but eventually there will be something that happens that annihilates civilization. It might be very far in the future, but we simply know from the fossil record, as I mentioned, that there have been at least 5 mass natural extinction events. And I think there’s added risk for humans that we could destroy ourselves because the dinosaurs did not have thermonuclear weapons. So they also didn’t have spaceships. So, we’ve got we’ve got the risk of the of the nuclear war that could destroy everyone, but we also have spaceships that can make life multi planetary.

And, so the to answer your question more directly, I think we can send uncrewed starships to Mars in approximately 2 years. So, Earth and Mars are Earth and Mars align for planetary transfer roughly every every 2 years. Every 26 years. Ah, 2 years. Yes.

So the Earth obviously takes a year to go around the sun. Mars takes approximately 2 years. And obviously, one cannot go to Mars when it is on the other side of the sun from Earth. So we have to wait for when Mars is in roughly the same quadrant of the solar system as Earth. And that occurs for about 6 months every 2 years, and the optimal transfer window is typically just a few months.

So, for a few months every 2 years or every 26 months, you can transfer to Mars. So, we’re there’s currently a Mars transfer window, which means that the next one is in 2 years from now, and then there’ll be another one 2 years after that. So, for the 1 in 2 years, I think we can send uncrewed starships to land on Mars to to test that we the landing systems are working, frankly. We want to make sure that we don’t, you know, add more craters to Mars. Yes.

That would be Yeah. The the Yeah. The freighter count increment must be 0. And if so we’ve once we prove that it is safe to land, then if like, if all the ships we send in about 2 years land safely, and we think we understand the issues, then in principle that in about 4 years, you could send the first people. And then Wow.

Then the number of ships can expand exponentially from that point. I mean, as a rough order of magnitude, my guess is that, we need to transport about a million about a1000000 tons of cargo, to Mars to make it self sustaining. You know, when things are very uncertain, I think if you can even guess to within one order of magnitude, you’re doing quite well. So I suspect probably a 100,000 tons is maybe not enough. And hopefully we don’t need 10,000,000 tons.

So, therefore, my guess is hopefully a 1000000 tons is enough to make Mars self sustaining. So maybe it’s a 1000000 tons of cargo to serve to Mars and about, you know, a 1000000 people or more. So that’s really what matters. The critical threshold from the standpoint of a fundamental, branching of the future of civilization, is that point of reaching on Mars where Mars can grow by itself even if resupply ships from Earth stop coming. At that point, the future of civilization branches and to a good branch.

Wow. And probable lifespan of civilization is dramatically greater. Yes. And my guess is that that there will be cases where the future Martians actually come and help and rescue earth and, you know, when there is an emergency. You know, just as America has helped to to rescue the rest of world in World War 1 and 2 and, and the Cold War.

And, you know, where would the world be if not for America helping out in those three circumstances? So so my I think that there’s a good chance Mars helps save Earth at some point in the future, maybe many times. And then once we have a civilization on Mars, we can expand to the rest of the solar system, to the, you know, the larger asteroids like Ceres, maybe to the moons of Jupiter and Saturn and beyond, at least through the rest of the solar system. And then, you know, then and then we go from being hopefully a multi planet civilization to, at some point, a multi stellar civilization, and we’re out there among stars. And, and then we can try to find out what is the nature of the universe, you know, perhaps when we go to and visit these faraway star systems, we will discover the remains of long dead alien civilizations.

I think that would be incredibly interesting. Khorshid will greatly improve our understanding of the nature of the universe Absolutely. Yes. So and things like the timescales are just remarkable to think about. I mean, physics, suggests that the universe is about 13,800,000,000 years old.

And, I mean, even the elements in our body that aren’t hydrogen, that like any heavier element had to be formed in, in the center of a star. And so, the, you know, the a large part of our body was actually formed in the center of a star and that star exploded and then the elements recondensed, ultimately billions of years later to, form Earth and humans. So, again, so when you think about these timescales, they were really remarkable to think about. And but a civilization that lasted a 1000000 years so our civilization, you know, like so I think a good metric for saying what when does a civilization start, I think is maybe writing, you know, that’s if you can pick anything, I’d pick that. That’s only 5000 years ago.

So, so for a civilization, like I say, last an incremental 1000000 years, that’s an enormous amount of time as compared to the length of human civilization. But it’s very small compared to the age of the universe. You’d have to go 3 digits past the decimal point of 13.8000000 years just to increment 1,000,000 years. So so I think we may find when we go out there and explore these star systems that that there were alien civilizations. Maybe they lasted for 1000000 of years, much longer than we’ve lasted.

And any civilization that can last a 1000000 years is gonna be in the Hall of Fame. This is an incredibly long time. So, anyway, and I think as, you know, for humanity, we don’t want to be one of those lame one planet civilizations. Like, you know, any self respecting civilization should have at least 2 planets. So that’s, that’s what we should aim for.

Wow. If you, so so you just said that, the, the human body, comprises of elements of an explode and then, re reordered, elements. Right? So do you, do you think that this, coincidentally happened? Or do you believe in God?

I’m just curious. Because because because many people say, okay, this cannot, have been a coincidence. That cannot right? So, so it just could have been, God. So do you believe in God?

Well, I’m I’m open to believing in things proportionate to the information that I receive. So, so I mean, I guess I have sort of a physics view of reality, which is, you know, you know, I guess I’m trying to I try I’m trying to understand the universe as much as possible to understand what’s going on. I’m certainly open to the idea of God. And if you say, like, well, where did the universe come from? How was it created?

I suppose there would be some entity that that you could call God. I I I I don’t know. But there’s that’s a separate question from say, is is there some entity that is observing our daily actions? And rendering a moral verdict on what we do from day to day? That doesn’t appear to be the case because, you know, at least there’s some very evil things that happen in the world.

And if there’s someone observing us on a moral basis continually, then it does seem odd that, some very evil things, are not to occur. But maybe that is the case. I don’t know. I just I try to form my opinions based on what I learn. And and as I learn more, I aspire to change my views to match what I learn.

Yeah. Same here. And to be honest, I’m still on a search. I’m I I don’t know what to believe. So it’s called maybe a agnostic.

And, yeah. But it’s very interesting to see how how the world and also the universe, evolved. And, yeah. It was it was incredibly interesting to listen to your visions. And, yeah, it’s it’s quite a vision for for for every one of us.

Yeah. I’d say that what I have is a philosophy of curiosity. So I’m I’m curious about the nature of the universe. And, I would say I subscribe to the Douglas Adams School of Philosophy that was described in The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy, you know, and, you know, in that book, the Earth was sort of a giant computer that was trying to answer the question, what is the meaning of life? And then it comes back with 4042.

And they’re like, what does 42 mean? And it’s well, it’s actually the answer is the easy part and the question is the hard part. So, you know, that was actually quite an illuminating thing for me because I had a sort of an existential crisis when I was 12 or 13 about the meaning of life, and, you know, I read I read many the religious texts and the books on philosophy, you know, it’s like reading Shrok and Aaronesia and whatnot, which is a bit depressing if you’re to read as a child. But, you know, ultimately Why? They’re a bit negative.

So, at times, you know, it’s actually it makes more sense reading it as an adult, but, but then I read the Hitchhike’s Guide to the Galaxy, which is really a book in philosophy, in the form of humor. And, and I think it kind of really that that I thought was very insightful, that is that we should basically try to understand the nature of the universe and, in fact, understand even what questions to ask about the answer that is the universe. And so that led me to conclude that we should aspire to expand the scope and scale of consciousness so that we’re better able to know what questions to ask about the nature about the answer that is the universe. So we should just seem to to take the set of actions that lead to a greater understanding, of the universe. Wonderful.

Actually, these are these are perfect, last words, to be honest, for our conversation. Because because because I don’t know right now, like, what to, what to continue because, these no. Really, because these words are so beautiful, so I would just, like, screw it up. And, it was wonderful. It was very, it was wonderful talking to you and, and listening to your views, of mankind and also to to to have an idea of your vision.

It’s very visionary and, yeah. Thank you so much. Thank you. Well, it’s it’s been a pleasure speaking, and I hope people listen to this conversation and find it, helpful. Alright.

Thanks, everyone. Thank you, everyone. Thank you for the don’t beat us then. Bye.